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are again here like we were for the debt ceiling, like we were for the government shutdown. it is ridiculous that we are here because we want to be having a big discussion. we have all the facts in front of us. we know that there are people like you kwhof a position on taxes. we know there are others who have positions on other things. and our democracy is supposed to allow us to somehow come to together, to convene, to deliberate and to evolve some sort of a compromise. what response -- what responsibility do you think conservative republicans who have signed this pledge to grover norquist bear for us getting to where we are today? >> well, actually, let me defend grover for a second. >> sure. >> he actually has signed on to some kind of a deal. we're in a situation that if nothing happens taxes go up on everyone. so -- and then a guy like me doesn't want to see that happen obviously. look, i want to make one other point. even if we go over the so-called cliff, and i think cliff is a bad metaphor here, really kind of a slope. it's not like the world's going to come to an end january 1st or
distract from what the country needs to do. we need to deal with our run-away government spending, the government is spending too much money. tax increases are not part of cutting the budget. tax increases are what politicians do instead of reforming government. as long as tax increases are on the table, the politicians never even think about reforming government. >> i understand you've been on this fight for a long time and you've been devoted to the whole idea of not seeing taxes increase anywhere. what we're down to is largely a political battle over the increase in marginal tax rates based on what you earn. i understand there's a lot more to this puzzle. but on that front, because that's the one that gets most of the ink around here. it's the whether people who earn more than 250,000 or 2z 400,000 or a million should pay more tax. the point i'm trying to get at is that's not going to hurt the economy. that's all we're talking about. paying 4.6 percentage points higher on your income over 250,000, the evidence isn't there that that's going to hurt the economy. >> it will take t
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